Hah. I almost left a scathing comment along those lines a week or two ago, then thought better of it.

[Posted by: J Thomason at March 15, 2006 10:50 AM]

Another stupid Libertarian rant from you Reason. Give it up. I did.

Go listen to Hanson's lecture at the recent futurist forum.

The modern nation-state (i.e big government) has only existed since the mid 1850's. For the entire time before that humanity was living under anarcho-capitalism. Yet as Hanson's power-point graph shows, the rate of economic growth during all that time was barely above 0.

The big explosion in economic growth is completely correlated with the rise of big government, as Hanson's power-point graph shows.

All the evidence then, suggests the total opposite of Libertarian ideology.

[Posted by: Marc_Geddes at March 18, 2006 12:40 AM]

Correlation is not causation.

[Posted by: Reason at March 18, 2006 10:17 AM]

Correlation is not causation.

But Geddes gets it exactly wrong. Capitalism was born just recently; before that humans lived under different forms of society involving coercion (never anarcho-capitalism). See, for example, Heilbroner's The Worldly Philosophers.

So, although correlation is not causation, I think that, with respect to capitalism and big government, the implication holds. "That government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves."

[Posted by: Kip Werking at March 18, 2006 10:57 AM]

There is and never has been any such thing as "anarcho-capitalism," thus not even the correlation that Geddes suggests exists. It is the protection of individual rights that makes explosive human progress, including explosive economic growth, possible--and such protection was first implemented in a nearly-consistent principled form after 1776.

[Posted by: Lee Pierson at March 20, 2006 10:01 AM]

I'm an ex-Libertarian myself guys. Believe me, no one is more familiar with Libertarian arguments than me.

What Kip and Lee are using is a tired old ideological trick - 'society x failed because it wasn't TRUE political system y'. In this case: 'Past societies were not TRUE capitalism'. Sorry doesn't cut it. Communist and socialist ideologies use exactly the same arguments: 'The Soviet Union wasn't TRUE Communism' and so on.

Capitalism is as capitalism does. Big government arose because an unbridled free market wasn't working. Too much capitalism and you get: Lack of public goods, extreme social tensions, discrimination, large numbers of people living in poverty due to bad luck. Too much socialism and you get: Loss of individual liberties, loss of innovation, excessive corruption and cronyism.

Best empiricial results have always been obtained with an even mix of capitalism and socialism.

[Posted by: Marc_Geddes at March 22, 2006 10:24 PM]

Marc_Geddes get's it right,

He has been thier, seen that, and is now better than ever because he see's the WHOLE THING the incubant ruling GOP are coorprotist. They don't believe in representative government by the people rather by the corporations. The pendgalem has gone to far. We do resemble the communist government of China. The elite ruling class, the better than thow mentality. Compare the balance of wealth to the have and have not's. The US and China are at 46.8 and 46.7 respectively compared to numbers as best I can recall around the high twenties for Europe and Japan. It is an amoral ruling elite and thier ilk that threaten humanity.

Thank goodness the US woke up in the last election something not as easy to achieve in China.

It is a question of balance.

It is also clear that the great depression was due to lack of controls over the corporations and the BIG GOVERNMENT saved us and brought the greatest middle class of all time.

Bottom line, free enterprise tends to be more productive.

Taken to far it becomes total supression.

Democracy does take work and vigialance. It's is still the best system to work with and we all need badly to take a hand at the riens.

Please do not confuse single payer health with socialism. Market force can continue. It could also be deployed parallel to an insurance based administration, both of which must be responsive to a government check. open and transparent data and systems incorporated into a simplified unit to include all (the whole) will serve us best. Our corporations don't deverve a $1,500.00 inborn tarif per unit car compared to the competition.

As Lee Pierson said above it is the protection of individual rights that promotes growth but the current executive sworn to protect our constitution has done damage to three, four, or more of it's blessed articles without appology.

They rule without balance, rid themselves of the intelectual/responsable middle class, and all because they were brought up wrong.

They don't believe in the whole of the nation and mankind. The corporatist have promised us a great market in China. China is communist, they got the market (Us), they got the investment, they got the jobs, what did we get? Or are we just working on the plan called laz a fair Bush government till we can prove government doesn’t work.

OH I just remembered we got the deficit and the week dollar.

OH yes national; debt foriegn rising from 1 trillion to about 4.5 or more and from a relatively low foriegn ownership to in the area of 45%. They spend 10 billion a month in Iraq, and cut millions from the domestic safety net. With such a good gig why do they have to hurt.

Look it's clear what went wrong. take of the amoral blinders and join the team.

God Bless America, United We Stant.

Tom J. Flaherty

Post Script: Sorry I've never been a good speller.

[Posted by: Tom J. Flaherty at December 18, 2006 6:14 PM]