Learned Helplessness as a Contribution to the Ubiquitous, Harmful Acceptance of Aging

In a world in which nothing can be done about aging and inevitable death, acceptance is necessary. To remain sane and productive, to work towards a golden future that we will not live to see, requires a stoic viewpoint. One must accept the aspects of the world that are beyond control, and understand that we can control our own reactions to those aspects, so as to lead the best possible life under the circumstances. Aging has long been an aspect of the world beyond our control; one could endeavor to be more healthy rather than less healthy, but in the end there was still the inevitable decrepitude, suffering, and death.

Yet now biotechnology offers the near future possibility of the medical control of aging - and even today, the first rejuvenation therapies, those that selectively destroy senescent cells, are already available to anyone adventurous enough to try. In this environment, where funding, support, and the will to progress are all required to build out the full portfolio of means of human rejuvenation, acceptance of aging has become harmful and poisonous. It holds us back, and tens of millions of lives are the cost of every significant delay.

When you are repeatedly subjected to an unpleasant or painful situation over which you seem to have no control, there comes a point past which you simply give up on the very idea that you could possibly escape your predicament. Once you learn that you're helpless in the face of circumstances beyond your control, you could end up simply accepting what is happening to you, even when the circumstances have changed enough to offer a way out.

We find this relevant because this learned helplessness could play a role in the pro-aging trance - or, at least, what happens in people's minds because of the pro-aging trance is very much reminiscent of learned helplessness. If you're new around here and have no idea what the pro-aging trance is, it's basically one of the main drivers of irrational opposition to rejuvenation therapies; it's the groundless conviction that aging is a blessing in disguise and that the fact that people age to death is actually good, despite the overwhelming, blatant evidence that this is not the case.

Even though you don't spend your entire life with worsening eyesight, diabetes, cancer, or heart disease (to name but a few), you - like everyone else on the planet - were brought up with the notions that aging is inevitable and that one day it will kill you if nothing else does it first. You're accustomed to the thought that, as you age, you will lose your health to at least some extent, and you have an idea of what you might be like in old age - weak, hunched over, easily fatigued, and with feeble senses and, if you're unlucky, even more serious health problems. This idea is woven into every fiber of our society, arts, and institutions; even if you're not exposed directly to the ailments of aging for most of your life, you are exposed to the unpleasant thought that your clock is ticking - a clock that measures not just the time you have left but also your remaining health - and that there's no way that you could ever stop the clock.

In other words, you spend your entire life with the knowledge that your health is slowly declining, a decidedly unpleasant thing that, ultimately, you have no power to prevent. Therefore, you learn to accept it and make your peace with it, perhaps whimpering about it every now and again, but doing nothing else about it. Once the effects of aging manifest themselves in your old age, the feeling of helplessness gets even more real, as your health problems are no longer hypothetical and your doctor can essentially only help you manage your symptoms. This overall situation has much in common with the definition of learned helplessness.

Link: https://www.leafscience.org/learned-helplessness-and-the-acceptance-of-aging/

Comments

I love it when you do these kinds of stories! I read on Twitter yesterday that Obesity is the number 2 contributor to preventable death. I'm thinking: Other than being hit by a bus or other severe trauma, what kinds of death shouldn't be preventable? There needs to be a rebellion against death.

Posted by: Tom Schaefer at April 5th, 2019 8:05 AM

@Tom Schaefer - heart attack, stroke, Alzheimer/Dementia, cancer? You can't prevent that.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 5th, 2019 12:22 PM

@Dokuganryu

Can't prevent but reduce the chance of them happening and probably find treatments, it not cures

Posted by: Cuberat at April 5th, 2019 12:32 PM

@Cuberat - so in an off chance you get it you're still dead. Cure is more preferable.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 5th, 2019 1:47 PM

If you can do anything about it, yes. Senolytics will live the healthpsan, and the median looked expectancy. If the max LS doesn't buge that would still make the 60s new 50s. And it is close to mainstream acceptance

Posted by: Cuberat at April 5th, 2019 2:13 PM

Not everyone is crippled when they are 60, I have grandmother that is 74 and is perfectly healthy I suppose for her age. I want to get to 120,but without any alterations (major ones, including new organs) I won't get there.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 5th, 2019 2:58 PM

Just the idea that through chemistry you could enjoy another 20 years in good health and really enjoying life, is a huge advance in thinking.

The idea I am battling online at the moment is that the way to do that is through dieting and exercise alone. I am slipping in the idea of 'and medicine where needed'.

Posted by: aa3 at April 6th, 2019 5:46 AM

Hi there! Just a 2 cents.

One study had showed that centenarians fell into three groups: survivors, delayers and escapers. But, there was a clear needed-element in all three, all three had it:

- Not have a disease before 65.

(shoot...I'm below that...oh well, so much for the 120; living above 100 is truly a feat and only if no diseases whole life).

When I mean a disease before 65, I mean 'Serious' disease, like diabetes, alzheimer's, atherosclerosis, CVD, sclerosis, intestinal/stomach digestion problems, asthma/poor lung function, small heart/big heart (hypothrophy, ventricular hypertrophy), cancer (of course), etc.

So that means your chances of reaching over a 100, are slim, because A Large chunk of the population do end up with 1 - or another/many of these diseases - and try to survive them. But, the age at which you obtain them, can have drastic effect on your lifespan.

If you have a serious disease before 65...and you are still live (like me), then you wonder, if you will even make it to 65...

Because living with a disease over 20 years can kill you, the point being if there is no regression, it will kill you at some point and 20 years is a long time - more than enough to kill you 'slowly but surely' of it/whatever disease.

If you check many diseases (serious one), you realize quickly that people succomb to them in the average of 10-15 years or so. You can't live 90 years with a very serious disease, that is extremely rare. It Kills you before you reach that age.

Living a 100 years is reserved for people is maintain pristine health - their whole life, and if a 'hiccup' happens, like a small bout of being ill..it's Very Quick...and then...back to shape, as if it never happened. These people are Rarely...20 years battling 'for their life'...like diseased people are.

Centenarians were divided in the 3 groups:

- Survivors : These centenarians had diseases, serious ones, but survived them; they had them after 65.
- Delayers : These centenarians pushed back As Late as possible their diseases, so, just, recently ill.
- Escapers : These centenarians are the 'one-in-a-million'..never had anything, ever, whole life.

Just a 2 cents.

Posted by: CANanonymity at April 6th, 2019 7:30 AM

My philosophy is simple: Never give up! I existence in defiance of the Grim Reaper. My message to him is: "Come and get me!"

Posted by: Zan at April 6th, 2019 10:21 AM

Hi Zan! Just a 2 cents. That is a good philosophy, fearless indeed (me I'm frightened to be honest, fear makes you alive, lack of fear may make you impervious and confident, but fear is that element that keeps breathing and reacting (fight or flight response; while about disease, it's just that fearing it come, is making you do steps to avert it instead of not fearing it - And Then It Comes...cause that very will happen - being fearless stops nothing (I was before, and disease came anyway. It's why I fear death now, because it's real(ly) real/serious when you can lose your life - any time - any moment, for real and you know 'your odds' are not so good anymore (it's like playing the russian roulette everyday and hoping you will make it to the end of the week by some miracle (as if those barrel chambers, were all 6, empty or blanks; but, the reality, is that 1 of the 6 is a live ammo round, and 1 of those 6-7 days could be it).
I don't think in years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds...

I think in heart beats and breaths now.

It's because i've already brushed with him/it (I survive atherosclerosis/blood clot pulmonary artery embolism)...Sometimes, I feel the same like saying to Grim R 'come get me...and work for your meal (but I'm putting up a fight, I won't give myself/life to you, my one and only, righful, life)'. But, I learned the hard (and painful way), he/it don't care and he/it can also muff/saccage you (on purpose), meaning Grim Reaper likes 'playing'/'torturing' (it's mean like that)...before taking you away, (come back later..just like a shark...rapid quick bites...run&gun...and then come back finish the job (if you have ever seen a seal vs shark/orca..you know waht I mean, the seal is one tiny bit at-a-time 'put apart' and then has barely no energy left/tortured/butchered/gibs/blubber flesh out and bleeds out; shark/orca roams/comes back and finishes it/eats it live (this tactic is to avoid 'contact' with the seal (minimal contact/100% kill), so no damage - just nip & run/rinse & repeat...continuously, and then finish job; Grim Reaper does exactly that 'Hit & Run'...sometimes he/it decides, had enough games, and takes you. For you, it's no game, because all along it is a torture, which you would prefer he/it finishes and be done with it/instead of continuing your pain/torture 'alive' 'keeping you alive (still) and in pain/torture').
So when you are crippled/decripit/bed ridden and can feel pain equalling 1000-knifestabs in you...you kind of give in/wish to end/that he/it comes and get it over with. The torture/pain makes you think: I won't survive, I want it to end and want him/it to come...to end it/me. But, how strong your Will to live is what makes you push him away - and Go Through all this deathly pain - and Still live (but be damaged by this of course/you don't come out 'intact', it always damages you 'in the fight'). Because, he is just gone away again...but can come back later, much quicker, since you were diseased and now you are more frail; so chances of dying higher - again.. that is the/your will; will you push him away again...and will you faint/scream from pain and let go this time.

Never give up...always Repush him away- it's how much you want it/Wanna Live/survive...as you said, but sometiems the deathly pain makes you want to. (to end it/had enough...it's just too hard...you fought already plenty of battle..no more energy/frail weak) That's what happened to my mother, had cancer...her cancer was removed...she was better/getting healthy again...then BAM...again another cancer...this time it was incurable and she would have had died of operation table, so they could not operate her since the chemo and everything made her so weak/frail. Thus she succombed of stomach cancer.

That's what I have realized, death can come, but pain can happen, nearly 100% sure...and that is something no one wishes; especially, if it is pain that is somewhat equal to losing all your limbs members on your body (amputation like war amputee, but even more painful than that. Like someone dropped a 50lbs sledge hammer on your brain repeatedly until made it a squished/flattened sponge, even there it's still weak pain and don't compare to the pain/torture you never felt in your life before - and NEVER want to feel (For once you felt it, you prefer dying than feeling it for it is excrutiatingly torturing and handicapping). Did you see torturn methods in the medieval times, it kinda like that (like people impaled, guts removed, quartered, stomach eaten by rat, burntalive, put in spike cage, bones stretch to popping; even some of these are are not so painful compared and you would prefer them 'the least painful' of the painful bunch). Diseases are like the Tortures of the past. It's why I am scared (having went through the 'Medieval Grinder' (just avoiding the Medieval executionier or getting 'ousted' in the Medieval Joust..but Grim Reaper was there all along, just waiting watching, till gets tired and takes you, by complete surprise or not so surprising (you kinda new your health was going downhill and you were getting tired of 'fighting/trying to survive the 'joust'', it was only a question of when he/it would come back). Now I say, if you want to give up, it's understandable; but I do say like you ' don't give up' have the will/to live...to survive..but if you have battling a disease 20 yaers and 'getting sick and tired of it' (and very much sick)...then perhaps, it's time to consider/concede him/it the win, and you to declare defeat/abandon (you don't want to - but you are Forced...pain forces you too; lil pain is no prob..it's extreme pain that forces you to abandon after repeated defending attempts - it freezes you 'into submission', 'subdues', 'incapacitates you', fries your nerves of stabby pain signals and coerces you to give up; too tired now, no more energy, no more will - Will is gone/evaporated/disentegrated by pain).

'What doesn't kill you makes you stronger'...yes, and, no. (yes, for you come out 'stronger'...no, for you don't necessarily come out 'stronger' Also (crippled/decripit/handicapped/inpain all over/you are weaker and fragile/can succomb)..continuous pain/disease, kills you one time (as said, you cannot spend 25 years with a serious disease, progressing, will die of it before that). You must keep with least pain possible and some tiny bit of pain is ok (like hormesis/small stress)..but above that now you enter the 'taxing your body' to death/will kill you/will succomb (just like my mother battling her disease till the end (my mother was scared of dying, Very understandably and told me she did not want to die; I was terrified for her and felt 100% helpless when she told me that - wanted to take away her cancer, almost give my life for her (my mother, for giving me a life) and make her 'eternal' if you will so no more d*mn cancers and my mother would be alive still - it's why I 100% am For Curing Death once and forever (of intrinsic causes/aging/diseases, except extrinsic causes like accidents. LEV should ahve come sooner, it should have been here 20 years ago already (imagine, 7 billion people saved from one day to the next; the biggest achievement ever in human history). IT'st too late and we are 30 years too early in this). Once you went through hell, you never want to go back in it (just pain for eternity in hell), prefer perishing.

Just a 2 cents.

PS: though this thoughts may sound dark...keep positive and push him/it back as best as you can; just don't fool yourself or be incredulous innocent, no one is immune to what I went through (I wish it on no one, not even my worse ennemy), life has a way of surprising you 'with lemons' 'curve balls' the 'sh*t hit the fan' (for me, it was more like, the entire sky sh*.. on me, I had to get a very Big Umbrella to withstand the sh..-deluge (think like an earthquake of richter scale - 100.0 order magnitude, and that's being underpowered).

I believe that day, when LEV, happens, is
when the (my) fear will be Gone and now we will have a Choice - To Choose to Live or Choose to Die (and so will Grim Reapear be gone...except by extrinsic accidents...but by all intrinsic-Grim Reaper (like aging/disease) will be done forever). Except, I don't put too much hope in it, I know the odds are ultra-slim that LEV or any therapy will happen in next 30 years; rather we will see health improvements via senescence therapies (better than nothing though, if healthspan improved is only the future (in our time here) then, so be it we were just 1 2 generations too late or too early however you want to see it)

Posted by: CANanonymity at April 6th, 2019 2:53 PM

@CANanonymity a lot can happen in 30 years. LEV is very likely by 2037 as Aubrey states. things are moving faster every day. look at the rejuvenation roadmap on lifespan.io, plus turnbio

Posted by: scott emptage at April 6th, 2019 5:32 PM

@Scott Emptage: I agree with you. Ray Kurzweil predicts LEV by 2030. No one has a crystal ball though so it's just a case of wait and see for now.

Posted by: Steven B at April 6th, 2019 6:13 PM

>What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Alas, we are at the phase were aging does kill us, albeit slowly. All we can do for now is to show it a bit by CR, lifestyle, and hope for the senolytics to work in humans

Posted by: Cuberat at April 6th, 2019 6:37 PM

@Scott/Steven, agreed, medical tech knowledge is increasing quicker and quicker. I am sure that there will be a HUGE leap in medical tech by 2030. I look for and read the latest and greatest on a daily basis, though I am a concepts person not of a detailed mentality. But, with more companies getting into the game (our resident editor himself, thank you Reason), numerous companies here in Silicon valley who don't believe in status quo, and exponential knowledge in the genome gleaming more secrets, I am very hopeful and excited for the NEAR future.

Posted by: Robert at April 6th, 2019 6:42 PM

@Robert
I am surprised how a startup can raise billion dollars on a patently bushtit product with questionable consumer base and yet have almost nothing for the anti-aging status and research.
After all, for all the venture capital millionnaires ans billionaires they cannot buy extra years for their lease on life...
Yet they don't try to hedge their beers there. .
Are they hostages of the learned helplessness?

Posted by: Cuberat at April 6th, 2019 6:56 PM

@Cuberat,

When I brought my wife to the US from Russia in 2008, I told her the big thing about this country is MARKETING. And, on top of that, we will all pay money (whatever the cost) to be healthy. So, for these two concepts/ideas, yea, big money when you are great at convincing someone health and extra years.

Posted by: Robert at April 6th, 2019 9:56 PM

If Aubrey de Grey predicts LEV by 2037, and Ray Kurzweil by 2030, as noted above, then I hope Kurzweil is right! Of course, realistically, it may be 2050, 2075, 2200, or later. :-(

So we gotta enjoy life while we can! :-)

Posted by: Zan at April 7th, 2019 6:34 AM

@Zan

Ray Kurzweil was always to optimistic. And busy perdition's are predicated on Moore's law its replacement. In fact, we have a show down in the progress of computing power and progress towards nano technologies is very slow too. Your most realistic bet on nano machines would be the wetware, i.e. repurposing the bacteria and cellular mechanisms, organelles and such. We are not even scratching the surface there, so don't expect singularity before 2060. As for LEV, we might be lucky and find some rest tweaks to halt the aging. If we are really unlucky the LEV might be reached well after 2060, when we have 100 percent understanding of all cellular processes and can build costum cells which will activate like a well -controlled army of repair bots.

Of course, we will know for sure only when we have listed the point of LEV. For example, let's say senolitics give an extra 10 years of median lifespans within a few years. And then in a few more we have cross-linking cleanup and atherosclerosis plaque removal to give a few extra years. So , in theory, we could be at LEV. When now...

Posted by: Cuberat at April 7th, 2019 7:02 AM

@Cuberat, Robert, Scott, Steven & Zan

A thought experiment as regards to LEV: have we reached it already?

Consider this scenario: a generic 60 year old, who would be expected to die at 80, suddenly becomes a life-extension fanatic and does everything they can presently do to combat ageing with supplements and drugs, as well as adopting a healthy lifestyle with exercise and fasting.

For example:

Reduce inflammation: Curcumin etc
Boost NAD+: NR, NMN
Activate sirtuins: Resveratrol, Pterostilbene etc
Activate AMPK: Metformin
Reduce mTOR: Rapamycin
Increase autophagy: Rapamycin, Spermidine etc

This gives them an extra five years.

They also use the first generation of senolytics: Fisetin, Dasatinib + Quercetin etc, which gives them an additional 5 years.

Now they are scheduled to die at 90 instead of 80, having gained ten years.

In the next ten years, considering the recent rapid acceleration of progress, other therapies/drugs will become available which will give them a further 10+ years, and so on. (my money is on cellular reprogramming being the next big thing after senolytics - a la Turn Bio) Therefore, their age of death will be continuously pushed to the right - is this not LEV?

As I said this is a thought experiment, so don't get your knickers in a twist with regards to dates or treatments, but I've been mulling about this recently and as an optimist I'm thinking "maybe, just maybe..."

I'm sure the pessimists out there will have a field day... ;-)

Posted by: Chris Linnell at April 7th, 2019 6:40 PM

PS - I should just emphasise that I have absolutely no idea how many extra years, if any, those supplements/treatments listed above could give us. I just put up those numbers for arguments sake.

Posted by: Chris Linnell at April 7th, 2019 6:49 PM

@Chris Linnell

There's a reason why we all ask specifics on the promising supplementss and senolitics. If it was about merely 5 more years of expectancy it wouldn't be that important l. However, rewatching LEV (at least from an aging point view) would mean an average life expectancy of 800 years , if we keep the same risk profile.
If we do something about the risks, we can potentially see the dead of our sun ( we will have solve quite a few technical issues besides the adding and perfect degeneration, but they're is nothing theoretically impossible. We are living in interesting times. We might be the last generation to die of old age or to be the first reching LEV. it is really exciting.

Posted by: Cuberat at April 7th, 2019 7:55 PM

@Chris,

Well, I will be 60 years old at years end. I just purchased NAD from Elypium, but will soon also be taking Fisetin from Best Doctors shortly. I don't know if either or both of them will give me some extra years, but until we have some real results with Solyntics, I will be trying these two products.

Of course for people in their late 50's or even in their 60's, it is best to exercise regularly, don't smoke, don't be over weight and eat reasonable well (my weakness,if the food don't have fat, sugar, or salt, taste is non existent, IMO)

Posted by: Robert at April 8th, 2019 2:18 AM

@Chris Linnell: I love your thinking! The human race aren't gonna wake up one day and say "we've reached LEV". It will just arrive with each incremental medical (or technological) advancement you list.

Posted by: Steven B at April 8th, 2019 2:21 AM

I have zero desire to live to be an old raisin to be fair, so I plan suicide if nothing comes up, which I am fairly sure it won't. And I am fairly young.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 3:35 AM

@Chris Linnell great analogy. I always think like that on what is available now. have you heard of nuchido? they are worth a look

Posted by: scott emptage at April 8th, 2019 6:30 AM

Dokuganryu,

How many times can you repeat the same childish comment, while predicting (with such certainty) the future at the same time? You do this over and over on reddit too. What's the point?

Posted by: Ham at April 8th, 2019 7:13 AM

In what manner is my comment childish? Maybe I don't want to go through suffering of old age and have other issues to deal with than just blindly hope in something that might not come. Just because some pills worked in mice doesn't mean it fixed every possible issue. Maybe if you looked into complexity of old age and into articles over here, you would find out even Reason is at times quite skeptical. But I see you personally can't be argued with because you have brain of 10 year old.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 8:50 AM

Find where I claimed "a few pills will fix every possible issue". Go ahead, I'll wait.

I'm fully aware of the complexity involved. Judging by your comments here and on Reddit, it's you that's lacking in understanding and knowledge. People like you that dismiss incremental advances that will improve the median more and more, yet worry about living forever before you (or the average lifespan) gets to 100 or 120 are pathetic and naive. I don't care if reason or anyone is skeptical. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. At least Reason is actively doing something about it and trying to push progress forward while you're sitting here pretending you have a crystal ball. And repeatedly saying how you'll kill your self. Super mature. Look in the mirror before you tell anyone else they can't be argued with and have the brain of a 10 year old.

Posted by: Ham at April 8th, 2019 10:14 AM

Ah, suicide is totally so childish although it might be a reasonable option for people who suffer in certain ways. I am talking about pills because that's so far what we have and probably will have. And living in miserable conditions till 120 isn't also an option, there is nothing like a proper aging reversal, not even on the horizon. Even cosmetic stuff like skin aging is impossible to solve properly in a reasonable amount of time. Blood vessels and the brain itself is an issue, I personally don't want to stick around like an old grandpa, because at a certain age you just are waiting for death to come and not living. I also dislike people like you, who are responsible for our society not offering painless exit, and force you to live through horrifying cancer and other shit till the last breath. And if you seriously think we will have any meaningful age reversal, then you are damn naive. Feeling better at 60? Maybe, but you still will have 60 years old tissues and organs and cells, good luck with that.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 10:52 AM

@Zan: F'n A Right! I'd be honored to be in a last stand with you, unloading on the Grim Reaper as long as our ammo (supplements) lasted and as fast as we could load magazines (weekly pill separators ;) .

I did my first 4-day fast with Fisetin (~5 grams, 3 times a day) a couple weeks ago. I didn't notice much visual improvement over my usual ones, and it hurt just a little bit more (probably good). Doing another one starting this coming weekend.

@Dokuganryu: "Not everyone is crippled when they are 60". I'm 58 and in better shape than 80% of the slack jawed 30-something that don't really exert themselves at the Planet Fitness I go to. Mark Twain was right: "Youth is wasted on the young".

Posted by: Tom Schaefer at April 8th, 2019 11:01 AM

@ Ira
Thanks for the link and interview.

Posted by: CD at April 8th, 2019 11:02 AM

@Tom Schaefer - you reminded me how I should exercise way more than I do, well of to work.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 11:04 AM

Dokuganryu

That's some crystal ball you have there. Clearly the concept of a piecemeal approach, which is likely what you're going to initially get as treatments roll out goes right over your head.I'm not going to argue with you in regards to there being nothing coming in the next 40-60 years or so of your life expectancy. I'll listen to the differing opinions of people who actually work in said fields and make up my own mind on what's reasonable to expect ;). Way to show off all the knowledge you supposedly have, though. With as much as you think know, you should be running SENS, Buck, or Calico.

Anyway... What people like me? People that get annoyed with people crying out for attention on the internet? Let me be clear and spell it out for you, since you clearly have reading comprehension issues: I don't care if suicide is legal or not. If people want to commit suicide, then let them. It makes zero difference to me, and I'm fine with it being legalized. But people that do what you're doing, which is constantly talking about how they're going to, or probably going to commit suicide if things don't go their way is little more than childish attention seeking.

If you in your infinite wisdom are so convinced you're not going to see any meaningful advances, then why are you here? Clearly incremental things that build on top of each other don't appeal to you.

Posted by: Ham at April 8th, 2019 11:20 AM

Calico showed nothing in so many years and Aubrey himself said they have no idea how to go about it. Buck Institute and Judith Campisi herself keeps pointing out how we still die and etc. You can get piecemeal approach even with current supplements and exercise, CR and diet, still won't save you from falling apart around 80. I simply don't want to live that long, it has nothing to do with attention. We won't beat aging this century, we won't have immortality, so might as well live well enough and then die if needed. To me, all the fun person has is when you are very young - from childhood till like teenage years, then it absolutely sucks. If you are so listening to others from the field, you would realize a lot of it is gaslighting and lots of uncertainties. I would advise not to follow Aubrey's ridiculous predictions and stop listening to lunatics like Ray Kurzweil. I would write a huge list of what is needed to know and what is complex enough so you would understand. But that I would reserve for PMs rather than write it here. I have friends who are working at research, including working at diseases like cancer, Alzheimer, etc, they don't see it as colorfully as you are.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 11:26 AM

@Dokuganryu: " To me, all the fun person has is when you are very young - from childhood till like teenage years, then it absolutely sucks."
Cheer up! I have been refining having fun for 50+ years and keep getting better at it. I have a wife and 4 kids that are a (almost ;) constant source of joy. My cooking keeps getting better, and my mental library of jokes getting larger and the opportunities to make people laugh with them keep getting denser. A couple weeks ago, I dropped my wife up at her dentist, Dr. Prior, and when I met him I said "It's great to meet you! and I look forward to meeting Dr. Afterwards". Opportunities to do heroic things at work are icing on the cake. Then there is Seasteading, expanding our civilization into space. Being happy is something to practice, it doesn't just happen, and usually involves making others around you happy.

Posted by: Tom Schaefer at April 8th, 2019 12:27 PM

I can't find happiness in life that almost ends, sorry to say that.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 8th, 2019 1:10 PM

Many interesting comments from Cuberat, Chris, Robert, Ira, Tom, and a few others! I'm taking *zero* supplements so far. But the first one to try seems like NR or NMN. No downside except cost, seemingly.

But I wish to hell someone would get to work and right away do year-long human trials with, at the least, NR, NMN, resveratrol, pterostilbene, metformin, and rapamycin. If not, then we need short-lifespan monkey trials. This might well tell us a lot!

Zantonavitch
NYC

Posted by: Zan at April 8th, 2019 7:57 PM

@Zantonavitch
Glad to see that someone can decipher my typos. Below are my 2 cents:

Most of the listed substances are widely used by humans so A metastuduy can help draw some conclusion.

Metformin, yes it does to work. A bit. Like a weak form of CR. it also upsets the stomach, so it also works like a mild eating disorder. Sign CR. it is cheap and widely used. It seems to lead to vitamin b deficiency in some cases, which might be dangerous. Otherwise it is safe.

resveratrol is a week antioxydant. Didn't live up to the hype.

rapamycin send to work. But since it is stronger the side effects are more serious. I wood like to see more human results.

While we can find a few frnds like fisetin I doubt that we will find a lot of miracle mol├ęcules.

Posted by: Cuberat at April 8th, 2019 8:40 PM

@Dokuganryu - a couple of points:

1. " To me, all the fun person has is when you are very young - from childhood till like teenage years, then it absolutely sucks." To concur with Tom Shaefer, yes life in your twenties can suck (I still remember how depressed & pessimistic I was, and how I dreaded turning 30 LOL), but it can get much better. I'm 43 and there's no way I would want to go back to the way I was when I was 23 - I have so much more confidence & (relative) wisdom, and am able to do & enjoy EVERYTHING that I did 20 years ago.

2. "We won't beat aging this century" - no, certainly not with that attitude! I've been following this field since the mid-1990s and for the first twenty or so years progress was incremental and uncertain, however there has been a very clear acceleration in the last few. There's a reason (no pun intended) why Aubrey has suddenly become more optimistic and there's a reason why investment money is starting to pour in. It only took 3.5 years from the first proof of principle with senolytics before the follow-up studies came out which enabled people to start self-experimenting. The first proof of principle with in vivo cellular reprogramming was at the end of 2016 and already there are whispers on the grapevine of some pretty remarkable results due out in the next year or two. Not this century? I say well before 2040! :-)

Posted by: Chris Linnell at April 8th, 2019 11:26 PM

Again, in general, I never wanted to grow up, since all the dreams I ever had are now gone and I need to focus on meaningless work because of reasons. I can't simply do stuff that I enjoy and get money from it. That's one disgusting stuff that happened to me when I entered my 20s. Second is stress from when to have children because I don't feel like I yet have seen the world and with children, I can't see anything anymore. But that's personal stuff. Anyway, it wasn't in vivo cellular reprogramming (if you mean OSKM) it was in vitro and we still don't know how to shot all cells in the human body. Frankly, at this point I embraced death, I know the stress I am going through will eventually kill me (either heart attack or my brain will throw me in front of a train) and I can't imagine sitting in 2040 and knowing " welp in few years I am dead". You keep sadly forgetting we are living in 21st century with half the knowledge of the 21st century, so having real substantial stuff before 2040 is just naive thinking. What stuff exactly? Senolytics aren't enough, we don't know how to make full cellular reprogramming, we can't create new organs because of blood vessels formation, we don't know how to rejuvenate vascular system, the organs we can grow in animals are still imperfect because the animals need to be immunosuppressed. We have nothing to address the brain, we continuously throw money on useless amyloid pills while nothing yet came out from draining tau and cerebrospinal fluid. And lastly to never die I think, we would need to perfect absolutely everything - or at least absolutely perfectly REPLACE everything. Suffice to say I think we are too soon for this.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 2:22 AM

@Dokuganryu - Just don't have kids then! Problem solved! ;-) But seriously, I can't help you with your personal issues apart from reiterating that you will get through this difficult period in your life and then you will look back and shake your head on how you used to be. Unfortunately your state of mind is blinding you from the reality of the exponential period of advancement we are currently entering. If you didn't see it the first time around, I strongly recommend watching Jim Mellon's talk, which Reason posted a month or so ago:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ9calMJYRw

Best of luck to you.

Posted by: Chris Linnell at April 9th, 2019 7:48 AM

No, it actually will be way worse, because I used to listen to this stuff when I was way younger and I didn't knew how happy I was back then, now it's getting only worse. Also funny you say not to have kids when I'll die nothing will remain in this world after me and what's worst I will be completely alone at my old age. But anyway I will listen to the talk but I am sure it's the stuff I have heard 100 times already and it completely omits what we truly can do.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 7:57 AM

@ Dokuganryu

You don't have to have children to leave something of yourself in this world; many great historical figures have inspired others though their writings and deeds long after they died. If you want children, fine, but do not have them because you want an extension of yourself. Children are independent beings and they will (and should) become what they want to be. They may not attend you in your elder years - they may have other responsibilities or they may simply not like you very much (many children grow to dislike their parents [1]). Also, do you really want your own children changing your diapers? That's what long-term care insurance is for - but if you are young, you need not worry about that. I am pessimistic and skeptical by nature and I firmly believe that we will have rejuvenation technologies by the time you will need them (unless the human race goes extinct first - which I hold as a very real possibility, but one I do not worry about since there is nothing I can do about it).

As for your apparent state of depression - exercise (vigorous cardio), mindfulness meditation, volunteer for a cause you believe in. Seek medical attention if it continues to worsen.

1 - https://thesocietypages.org/thickculture/2010/08/12/americans-hate-their-parents-is-that-a-good-thing/

Posted by: CD at April 9th, 2019 12:58 PM

@CD

Yet everyone has children altough they know into what suffering they are putting them in. Also as I said, I refuse to be all the way up to diaper status and even experience death of my parents or my spouse, fuck that honestly (pardon me for the rudeness). Also it's not depression, you can't cure existential dread, no matter what you do, it's meaningless in the end. I personally wouldn't mind dying with our planet, at least no more suffering for millions or billions new people that were thrown into this world.

To your skepticism I say not skeptical enough I guess as you apparently and none here truly realizes what is possible and what is not and beyond my own lifespan I don't really damn care what humanity will achieve after that - why should I? I am not going to see it. Believe me I wish people wouldn't die of old age, at least older people cared more about the way the world is.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 1:09 PM

" To your skepticism I say not skeptical enough I guess as you apparently and none here truly realizes what is possible and what is not"

Yeah. Everyone here is an idiot viewing things with too much optimism, and it's you, against all odds that's smarter than everyone, knows both what is and isn't possible and in what time frames. Astounding.

Here's a thought for you to ponder with your infinite wisdom: if you're half as smart as you think you are, why aren't you directly involved in biogerontology and trying to do something about it? You're obviously scared shitless about aging. But since you "realize what is possible and what is not", I would imagine the field could use your help since you've seemingly got it all figured out.

Stop crying on the internet and go do something about it, or put your big boy pants on and learn deal with whatever comes or doesn't come in the 40-60 remaining years you potentially have.

Posted by: Ham at April 9th, 2019 2:15 PM

And you have no knowledge whatsoever, but I am so sorry you're such fanatic towards Aubrey De Grey you feel the need to constantly attack me. You are all naive optimists, that's just a fact. You see 25% increase of lifespan from metformin and you all jump on it in failed attempt to stave off death infinitely because if metformin works then senolytics will work too and probably double that number. Just lol. Not only you completely ignore whatever I point out about blood vessels, organ failure and shortage, the useless fight against dementia and Alzheimer that leads nowhere, but you just straight up enjoy insulting me because I dare to have reasonable doubts. You are worse than transhumanists who thinks we will have cyborg bodies in a couple of decades. If you would actually layed off popular media and people who obviously want to make shit ton of money on snake oil (Jim Mellon) and talked to researchers in Alzheimer research you would realize the reality is way bleaker. I attended discord with a person that works in Alzheimer's research and that person isn't optimistic at all.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 2:45 PM

Rofl, you're delusional. What's your purpose for posting here? You don't actually stick to the science, all you do is post about how unhappy you are and about your personal issues that no one here needs to hear about. There's plenty of other places on the internet for you to complain about all of that. So really, what's the point?

"And you have no knowledge whatsoever, but I am so sorry you're such fanatic towards Aubrey De Grey"

Yeah, your knowledge is on full display. I'm not the one who constantly harks back to what Aubrey says as reference, and then changes my mind and attacks what he says. He's one person, and he's not the be all, end all of everything aging related. Neither is Campisi (who you constantly contextually misquote), despite your legendary hard-on for her. Not even George Church, who is also on the optimistic side. On a side note, I'd love to hear all the reasons you have as to why George Church is wrong about everything he says, too. But I digress...they're all just individuals, and following what any one of them says 100% is a recipe for disaster. But you SHOULD know that already.

"You see 25% increase of lifespan from metformin and you all jump on it in failed attempt to stave off death infinitely because if metformin works then senolytics will work too and probably double that number. Just lol."

Yeah, because any of that has happened, and that's totally what metformin does /s. Literally no one thinks metformin is going to give you 25% lifespan increase, and senolytics 50%, as you claim. Delusional. You're the simpleton that's looking for someone to wave a magic wand and to suddenly make you immortal. You're too worried about living forever, than living for today and the near future, let alone 100 or 120. Grow up.

"Not only you completely ignore whatever I point out about blood vessels, organ failure and shortage, the useless fight against dementia and Alzheimer that leads nowhere" but you just straight up enjoy insulting me because I dare to have reasonable doubts"

No. It's not worth responding to, because even people that are as ignorant as you can see that this is all stuff that's being worked on. It's not ready yet, and no one claimed it is. The difference is, I don't claim to know what's going to happen or what we'll have between now and ~50 years from now, when my time is expected to be up. Going through life and denouncing everything because you're miserable and don't actually understand any of the science is on you. Sorry you can't handle being called out on it. And yeah, the brain is going to be the biggest challenge. No kidding. No argument from me there, either. But i'm sure you've looked into all of the research there, and with your infinite wisdom, came to conclude that it's all worthless.

"but you just straight up enjoy insulting me because I dare to have reasonable doubts"

Please. Get over yourself. You make every thread you post in about you and your 'existential dread' and your other BS that no one needs to hear about. You don't have reasonable doubts, you just decree what is and isn't possible, without even working in any of the related fields. You cling onto what people say about senolytics for some weird reason, and you can't comprehend that they're only a start, and that no one actually things they're more than that.

"You are worse than transhumanists who thinks we will have cyborg bodies in a couple of decades."

I'm not the one posting in that sub on reddit ;)

"If you would actually layed off popular media and people who obviously want to make shit ton of money on snake oil (Jim Mellon) and talked to researchers in Alzheimer research you would realize the reality is way bleaker."

Yup, total snake oil. I don't know if my eyes could roll any harder. And I already said I thought the brain was goig to be the biggest challenge.

"I attended discord with a person that works in Alzheimer's research and that person isn't optimistic at all."

Congratulations on being on discord with an Alzheimer's researcher, lol. I guess that makes you an expert now. I once watched a livestream of a conference on gerontology. Does that mean I can be an expert? What a joke.

I'll ask the question again, since you so conveniently didn't address it. You have so much more knowledge than everyone here. Everyone here is a naive optimist. You're the only one who sees the truth. If you're as smart as you think you are, why aren't you working on the problem?

Take a hard look in the mirror, kid. Let me know if you need me to elaborate on something, as I know lots of things tend to go right over your head.

Posted by: Ham at April 9th, 2019 3:22 PM

I love how you don't realize that the metformin and senolytics talk was an overexaggerated example. Damn so funny. I am telling you we won't figure out how to solve problems with blood vessels even in 50 years, because the effort and interest isn't there (Aubrey conveniently ignores those parts), and even if something does come up, you gonna be old at that time, possibly have irreversible damage so what you gonna do? Watch other younger people reaping the benefits. Good luck with that.

Also why should I work on the problem? If I wasn't here on this planet in the first place I wouldn't need to concern myself with that shit. Also I refuse to talk about my personal issues, the others brought it up I just responded and don't really feel the need to talk about it further, other than refuting the fact I am not depressed and have existential dread which you nor anyone else on this damn planet and in this whole universe can't solve, not even myself. Want to also know what exactly I am misquoting from Judith Campisi, it's starting to be really funny and silly. And yes, Jim Mellon is selling snake oil, I watched the talk with him in the abundance summit and love how we conveniently omit the fact that gene therapy will not work for people who are already born and developed and keeps asking for more money because he will be filthy rich with his shit ton of transplants while we gonna die at 80 in poverty, but hey, at least we gave him money for his investments and promised gene therapies.

And I pointed out the Alzheimer researcher because I actually ask relevant and realistic stuff and got relevant useful answers and realistic prospect - where the research leads if the bacterial infection has any merit and what do they think about tau. But whatever, I would prefer for you not to constantly following me everywhere, don't you have something else better to do? That will give you the illusion of your " life" meaning something? Thanks.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 3:34 PM

"(Aubrey conveniently ignores those parts), and even if something does come up, you gonna be old at that time, possibly have irreversible damage so what you gonna do? Watch other younger people reaping the benefits. Good luck with that."

Ah yes, there's your Aubrey reference. Please, point me to this cutoff line you speak of that's definitely rooted in hard science, and not dependent on the individual's relative health. And if that is the case, and I have to watch younger people reap the benefits, so be it. Sucks, but that's life.

"Also why should I work on the problem? If I wasn't here on this planet in the first place I wouldn't need to concern myself with that shit"

You really do have a loser mentality lol. And you should work on it because you talk far too much shit for an armchair scientist, that's why. You try and act like you're the smartest guy in the room all the time when you post here, and yet you're nothing more than a little pissant that offers little more than opinion. You wan't to see something come to fruition? Then contribute. Using your opinion (and I stress YOUR OPINION)to determine what's real and what isn't is laughable.

"I watched the talk with him in the abundance summit and love how we conveniently omit the fact that gene therapy will not work for people who are already born and developed"

And yet, tons of companies are working on gene therapies for people who are already born. I guess you know something they don't.

"and keeps asking for more money because he will be filthy rich with his shit ton of transplants while we gonna die at 80 in poverty, but hey, at least we gave him money for his investments and promised gene therapies."

But I thought we weren't gonna have transplants in the next 50 years? Sooner for him, since he's older. And speak for yourself about dying at 80 and in poverty. You're responsible for your own financial well being.

"And I pointed out the Alzheimer researcher because I actually ask relevant and realistic stuff and got relevant useful answers and realistic prospect - where the research leads if the bacterial infection has any merit and what do they think about tau."

Really original and eye opening questions. /s

"But whatever, I would prefer for you not to constantly following me everywhere, don't you have something else better to do? That will give you the illusion of your " life" meaning something? Thanks."

Which is awesome, since I've been posting here and the longevity subs long before you started coming around with your bullshit. Not my fault that when I reply to something ignorant, it tends to be yours. Sorry that you decided to muck up the places I read most with the same comments ad nauseum.

Posted by: Ham at April 9th, 2019 3:49 PM

And since you had the luxury of being on discord with an Alz researcher (much wow), you should have taken the time to ask him his thoughts on Telocyte. Unless, of course, you already dismissed that.

Regardless, I'm done interacting with you. Good day.

Posted by: Ham at April 9th, 2019 3:54 PM

Irreversible aging damage - quiescent tissues and cells, good luck with replacing that :P Yeah those gene therapies that do barely anything and are basically meme, just like current stem cells injections. To make gene therapy fully work you need to infect all cells, good luck with that too - too dangerous as well.
So what I asked those " really original and eye-opening question", this is what is coming up lately, I ask about it when I have the opportunity to ask someone who actually has something to do with the research. And I am talking about transplants that you can get from black market nowadays and get like a shit ton of them if you are rich (certain old rich guys - David Rockefeller that lived to be 100 precisely because of that)

Also compared to billionaires, everyone is basically poor, that was more or less my point. I mean I keep listing issues that need to be figured out, where those problems lie and you weren't able to refute anything other than keep repeating how none of us know the future and how I am pessimistic and a loser. No wonder people refuse to believe guys like you, because you lack a realistic approach to things. I don't really know what you think about gene therapies, I would be thrilled to learn though I bet it's damn far from reality.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 9th, 2019 3:58 PM

Dokuganryu...suicidal ideation is it's own reward? Keep digging a hole...guess where you end up...in China. LOL. Been there...done that....

Posted by: bob at April 10th, 2019 6:18 AM

As an example of the different approaches to aging I relate my siblings recent activities:

I've had a brother-in-law and sister-in-law be diagnosed with stage IV cancer in the last 1-2 years. Last summer they (as a group) started hugging each other a lot when gathered for this and that. We also had a get-together at the family cemetery where everyone sat around and prayed.

I'm not totally against this behavior (other than the endless hugging...OK for them though) but I see it as fairly pointless. I'm not anti-religious especially...I just tend to deal with spiritual issues in a more practical way since I have some abilities in the psychic realm.

I tend to approach aging with a different technique where I'm trying to improve my diet...take supplements...exercise...meditate...and avoid the unknowing...etc. I tend to downplay interpersonal relationships...since I rarely run into people who would likely be of much benefit going forward....most seem to have an agenda of some kind....an effort at perpetuating some kind of ignorance?

Doesn't mean I know everything...just that maybe I know better...

Posted by: bob at April 10th, 2019 6:45 AM

I lost it at psychic realm lol. News flash, there is nothing spiritual about our existence, we just are. But then again if half of you are from USA, I am not surprised the majority of you lean towards spirituality or religion, although it's utter nonsense.

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 10th, 2019 6:57 AM

@ bob
I've almost been to 'China' a few times, lol. What kept me from getting there was... spite. I live to spite the people who have literally tried to kill me (like that a-hole limnology grad student who put rotenone in my dinner a few decades ago). I hope to outlive them all, even if I degenerate to needing diapers. If I get the opportunity I will visit the a-hole limnology grad student's grave and 'forget' to put on a diaper.

@ Dokuganryu
"There's an old joke - um... two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know; and such small portions." Well, that's essentially how I feel about life - full of loneliness, and misery, and suffering, and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly."

- Woody Allen, Annie Hall: Screenplay

~
Seriously, get off the computer and go volunteer at an animal shelter. A head bump from an old cat or a few licks from a puppy and everything will look different, I promise.

Posted by: CD at April 10th, 2019 11:22 AM

It's cute how you think you know what you are talking about :'D

Posted by: Dokuganryu at April 10th, 2019 12:38 PM

Looking at the source saying that... Just... lol.

Posted by: Chris at April 10th, 2019 5:36 PM

@ Dokuganryu
It's cute you think you discovered the whole heat death of the universe thing. You know those historical figures I mentioned? Many are famous for their writings about their own existential crises. One was a young prince who literally had everything, but he realized one day that everything and everyone eventually decays and dies. Buddhist practice - which at its core is mindfulness meditation and nonattachment - is probably the most successful method to deal with existential crisis. You don't have to be religious or even spiritual - see Robert Wright's _Why Buddhism is True_ or Sam Harris' book on meditation (for just the meditation part, but nonattachment is just as important - and it apples to relationships as well as material things).

Then there is work. From my favorite author, Joseph Conrad:
"I don't like work--no man does--but I like what is in the work--the chance to find yourself. Your own reality--for yourself not for others--what no other man can ever know. They can only see the mere show, and never can tell what it really means."
The best type of work is that which relieves the suffering of other beings (again, volunteer at an animal shelter).

The next most widely used technique is psychedelic drugs (e.g., ayahuasca). Pursue at your own risk.

The last is approach is new - George Hotz's 'jailbreaking the simulation'. I mention it because it is new and different; I am agnostic on this - as Hotz notes, the simulationist hypothesis is unprovable. He wishes he were smarter - sadly, I think he would be a happier person if he lost a few dozen IQ points.
https://youtu.be/ESXOAJRdcwQ

~
Some of the wiser commenters have said to disengage, so this will be my last post to you. However, regardless whether you are sincere or a troll, you are obviously suffering (even if you don't realize it) and I can't help but try to assist a one-eyed dog in pain - even if it snaps back.

Posted by: CD at April 12th, 2019 11:07 AM

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