Calcium Alpha-Ketoglutarate Supplementation Reduces Epigenetic Age in Humans
The company Ponce De Leon Health claims that a recent pilot study of calcium alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation results in an average reduction of 8.5 years of epigenetic age via the DNA methylation test offered by TrueMe Labs. This being the supplement industry, expect to have to wade through a lot of dubious and excessive marketing to find any solid information about what actually happened here. The best pace to start is with the 2019 paper on the effects of calcium alpha-ketoglutarate in mice, which is a reputable study authored by reputable researchers. Delivered late in life, this intervention reduced frailty to a meaningful degree, but with only a modest effect on life span. It did not reduce senescent cell burden, but did reduce inflammatory signaling - and chronic inflammation is an important aspect of degenerative aging.
The important point to consider here is that the TrueMe Labs assay is not a relabeling of any of the more established epigenetic clocks, those with significant research associated with their behavior. It is is its own beast, an independently developed test. It uses only 13 DNA methylation sites, and so it is very possible that it is much more sensitive to some interventions than others, in comparison to, say, the original Horvath clock, depending on which mechanisms influence those sites. Thus one cannot take any of the established research into the better studied clocks and use it to inform expectations as to how the TrueMe Labs assay will behave. 8.5 years might sound like a large effect size, but it is impossible to say whether or not that is the case.
That is the challenge with all epigenetic clocks, frankly. None are yet strongly connected to underlying mechanisms of aging; it is hard to say what any specific change or outcome actually represents in terms of metabolic processes. The assays will produce a number, but that number cannot be compared between clocks, and it cannot be compared between interventions. It cannot even be used to say how good any specific intervention might be, without a great deal of further calibration for that specific intervention. Not that one would learn that by reading the Ponce De Leon Health marketing materials. A cynic might suggest that they shopped for the clock that would produce the most sizable outcome for their intervention. Whether or not that is the case here, I'm sure that this strategy will become prevalent.
Metabolism and aging are tightly connected and specific perturbations of nutrient-sensing pathways can enhance longevity in laboratory animals. Here we show that alpha-ketoglutarate (delivered in the form of a Calcium salt, CaAKG), a key metabolite in tricarboxylic (TCA) cycle that is reported to extend lifespan in worms, can significantly extend lifespan and healthspan in mice. AKG is involved in various fundamental processes including collagen synthesis and epigenetic changes.
Due to its broad roles in multiple biological processes, AKG has been a subject of interest for researchers in various fields. AKG also influences several age-related processes, including stem cell proliferation and osteoporosis. To determine its role in mammalian aging, we administered CaAKG in 18 months old mice and determined its effect on the onset of frailty and survival, discovering that the metabolite promotes longer, healthier life associated with a decrease in levels of inflammatory factors. Interestingly the reduction in frailty was more dramatic than the increase in lifespan, leading us to propose that CaAKG compresses morbidity.
Pilot Study Results Suggest Epigenetic Age Reversal
Ponce de Leon Health initially worked with Dr. Brian Kennedy, who was, at the time, based at the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, searching for compounds that were generally recognized as safe (GRAS) but that had the potential to influence aging in mammals. The company screened over 300 GRAS compounds and identified compounds that could modulate a number of pathways that are linked to aging. Dr. Kennedy subsequently joined Ponce de Leon Health as its Chief Scientific Officer, and the company has been busy testing and preparing to translate these findings to people. Its strategy has been to test its products on mammalian models that closely emulate human aging in order to give the best chance of translating beneficial results to us.
For consumer testing the company gave participants Rejuvant and measured their epigenetic ages using DNA methylation testing. This supplement contains a proprietary form of calcium alpha-ketoglutarate, which the FDA considers to be GRAS. The company believes that Rejuvant works by slowing down the rate of age-related DNA methylation and reducing the inflammation caused by senescent cells, two proposed reasons why we age.
Coincidentally, I stumbled on their site a couple of days ago, I wondered why they were so under the radar. Now I see that's changing.
"A cynic might suggest that they shopped for the clock that would produce the most sizable outcome for their intervention. Whether or not that is the case here, I'm sure that this strategy will become prevalent."
Spot on.
Let alone the fact that 8.5 years of rejuvenation should be visible to the naked eye. Since phenotype reflects the going ons in a myriad of systems, zero change in the way someone looks - be it wrinkles or muscle mass - is likely to mean negligible effect on lifespan.
Looks like Brian Kennedy has sold out and joined the supplements industry.
I were sceptical when I read that Calcium Alpha-Ketoglutarate were used in the body builder industry which are known for using compounds that accelerates aging like proteins with high methionine amount and Human Growth Hormone (HGH), which can cause cancer.
Assuming some modest benefit with Rejuvant, wondering what the effect would be If combined with nicotinamide riboside.
Hi there! Just a 2 cents.
Alpha-Ketoglutarate is good supplement, that is like/mimics..the other CR mimicsm and thus is basically a CR mimic. It works in the same method as CR, fasting and ketogenic diet, it is an antioxidant and also a substrate in the OXPHOS (oxidative phosphorylation) cycle of mitochondria to produce ATP. But not much more than that, it is not cure. It will modestly slow aging by improving autophagy burden (less), so autophagy acn do a better job of mopping the giant senescent mitos, oxidized DNA and other residues. Also, it probably affects metabolism just like CR does. CR is capable of giving 5-15 years of healthspan in human (roughly), while in mouse it is up 30-50% lifespan extension; thus, in humans it's about 10-15% or less. Not much more, 20% is probably pushing it. I highly doubt CR in humans can give 40-50 years extra.
10 years sounds about right. And about you get with Alpha-Ketoglutarate, but less so; CR is Always stronger than Any of these supplements; it has been compared to Everything under the sun; and time/time again, it still stronger in 'total (systemic) effect'; because it hits So many points (DNA damage, autophagy, oxidation, glucose levels, metabolism slowing, etc.. etc...so it is Wide...) some of the supplements don't have as much 'far-reaching/wide' effect inbody. It's tested and does have an effect. Alpha-Ketoglutarate turns on the switch for ketotic pathway (just like body ketones and ingesting ketones (from raspberries for example/raspeberry ketones), they make you lose weight and control blood glucose; none of that is really profoudn slowed aging, but yes it ends up as so becaus you gain a bit of healthspan (in the long run). Probably, the epigenetic clock is also delayed/lowers a bit after A-KG. Same as CR, it reduced most clocks and why animals live longer; but for humans it's not enough; with age, the ROS signal overcomes that and supplants any tactic. In the end, your telomeres still drop and there is net negative loss; and then, around late age, there are moer more pulses ROS, too much.
Around 8th decade mega ROS pulse, It rises up in Logarhitmic ROS elevation (DCF signal).
Many studies don'T study what happens 'later' in 8-9-10th decade and it'S why we can't solve the problem of aging; thankfull some studies studied elders..but if we can't slow/reverse their age, then no we acn't stop aging. Epiclock crucial, but now I am believer - full pin - telomeres are the biggest crucial element (not Mitos, and they sure matter for are ROS source), but telomeres/chromsomes (DNA) that is, are the ultimate decider of longevity (Maximal not just healthspan). DNA loss means heayflick one day and cell senesce. But in Every cell of your body, and then one essential organ or several, 'too old to function' just fail(s), that's teh end.
Just a 2 cents.
PS: It's why it'S crucial that our telomeres stay in top size/top shape; short size/bad shape = end.
If a clam has Telomere Elongation during 150 years (yes it Rises with its age/due to processive telomerase)...and lives up to 500; and a California Tree lives 5000 years and has cyclick telomerase bouts Too...and we have Continuous telomere erosion and we live 122 max...then it's clear what'S going on. And the kicker/it's interesting because that clam living 200+ well..in its last 10 years of lifespan 190-200 decade...Massive ROS increase and telomere go alll the way down..in space of 10 years (while the animal maintained high ones over 150+ plus years). This means rate of telomere erosion/chromosomal nDNA erosion-loss = maximal longevity.
PPS: combining A-KG + NAD supplements is better but it is a bit redundant, for like CR, CR increases NAD simply by less metabolic crap going on/oxidation...so more NAD left/produced...there will be a slight boosting/even maybe a synergy...but it's even possible A-KG already increases NAD (just like CR), thus redundance...but you want More of it...so take both. But don't think this will necessarily Double the effect or something; NAD will increase the replicative bouts/replicative capacity of the cell (it will be replicative senescent farther/Hayflick later); just like taking B3/Niacin/Niacinamide/nicotinic acid, all of them increase NAD levels and give approx. 30-40% increase in replicative lifespan; which very strong effect; it would Technically mean 20-40 years human lifespan extension (for, general replicative capacity is 60-90 bouts; with NAD or B3...it increases to 115-125; so a pretty huge increase; that's because NAD will reduce substantially ROS at mitochondria (through the Redox/Gsh:Gssg (antioxidant system in mito/cytosol and ECM; especially, the SOD ones (like Extra-Cellular SOD has dramatic effect on cell ROS; it catches all the ROS that goes out in the EC; apparently it is even worse that mitochondrial ROS; because ECM ROS causes macro-molecular damage; and why ablation of ECM SOD/SOD3 can cause senescence rapidly; mtSOD (SOD2) too); which all these redox antioxidation system are dependent on NAD avail./redox) and this will end up, down the line - as telomere erosion Rate reduction (if increasing NAD). But don't go thinking NAD is cure...it's not. Telomere/telomeric DNA still skrink and you still lose epigenomic DNA too.NAD/B3 give about 30% exntesion of healthspan in human cells (it should techincally translate as 30 years extra rough...because 60-90 PDs is what they do normally, and is the life of a human (60-90 years). But none of this will work if starting late..it was demonstrated in human fibrobast cell; you only get to 120 bouts if you Start Young...not old. That is why I repeat, therapies To Work must be started earliest; obviously they must work in old people but studies don't point to that; they point to 'it's too late' (had to start in young age/low bouts, not high bouts/late in old age). The accumulation of damage/crap with age is why the effect don't work in old cells; but generally in only young ones (until we can Reverse every aspect of the 'clock/signature' and everything else in old cells...like they do with iPSCs reprogramming (yamanaka) doN't count on it - in very old cells to magically stop aging/reverse).
The only way - I think - that we could reverse this process in the Very Old cells/people...is making sure we get back the signature and reverse our telomere erosion; back to correct size and the 'rest' (junk, lipofuscin, glucosepane, progerin, drusen, A2E, furosine, CML, AGEs, ALEs, transthyretin, amyloid, tau...) will figure that one; I'm 100% sure it is not 'terminal' and can be worked around. The body has the capacity to work around these limitations; if an animal live 500-5000 years; it means that the Threshold can be Pretty Low (although Quality of Lifespan may suffer...and Iwould understand why people would Not want to be Reverted if they are too old; they would say :''What's the point of gooing back to 50 years old if I still move like a 80-90 year old (because of residue burden not all removed after therapy); I rather end it..now, at my 90 years old''. That will depend with people, I believe there will be people who want nothing of it; because quality of life will supplant longevity in 99% people; if the benefits in longevity (at old age) are accompanied by not enough improvement in health; then they won't want it/bother. Guaranteed it'S what's going to happen. I heard so many people say that (prefer to die than live crippled/decripit 'forever'); thus, we have to absolutely improve health; I think the effect will substantial enough that if they get at least 20 years reversal of Health..then they will be sold..because they Were Function 20 years before and quality of life - was ok/manageable...if wedon't obtain that; it'S going to be hard. We want to believe that the health would be 1:1 wit age reversal; so age reversal = health reversal; health Should improve but we don't know the effect of all the 'accumulated junk' of someone 100 years old; that is Reversed to a younger age; For sure, lots of that junk will be Diluted/Excreted/Destroyed by the autophagy systems; thus, we think they are Permanently as junk..it may not be so; with age they Become permanent...but if you reverse aging you Remover permanence of junk; and allow now to have body be capable of removing them. Just a 2 cents.
"but did reduce inflammatory signaling - and chronic inflammation is an important aspect of degenerative aging"
So, is this not a biomarker in-and-of-itself--the "reduction of inflammatory signaling"? Why can't we ignore the issue with what clock to use and different proponents of such, and instead look at what the intervention actually accomplished, versus the measuring device we are inventing to extrapolate what it did?
Eugene
PPPS: Hi Eugene! Just a 2 cents. That's a very good question.
The reason is because, in the past, many studies showed that 'not all seems what it seems'...it is not always 1:1...tit-for-tat. It is not Because you reduce this or that element/damage whatever..that you - Necessarily - see reverseal of aging; it is Much More Confounded/Grey shades...thus, ambiguity is the Biggest thing in anti-aging research. It's why we continuously search for More 'measuring' 'measures'...when, as you said, we should just look at the results of study, like if there was reduction of inflammation or something; should this not be more 'than enough' to see that Indeed there is something going on and we see reversal/slowing of aging.
Measuring/Quantifying-Quantitizing/Qualifying-Qualitizing/Marking....with age markers is Very imoprtant to avoid erring/duping self....if there is one thing I learned of looking at 50K researches it's that many contradict themselves, there is ambiguity still and not one day goes by that another study will refute or acquiece to what another one said (they don't necessarily go out of their way to 'disprove' the others - no, simply they show that Another Result can be obtained - One, that does not corroborate the Other's study results; i.e. The Contrary; that is because many studies do the 'comparative study'/'in résumé'' which is to look at Everything there is currently in the litterature and then make a 'résumé' of it all; weighting the pro/cons....pitting the studies that refute each other to come up to some conclusion/consensus. The 'In Résumé' huge studies have upward of 500-1000 credits/sources/Studies! That goes to show they go far and wide to 'scan' all there is the literatture/body right and 'sum it' into one tidy 'big résumé study'.
Aging is deceiving, smokes&mirrors and full of shades grey/doubts/contradictions/ambiguity..it is why measuring is crucial to remove doubt and ambiguity (aging is Full of Double-Standards, Double Dipping/Catch22/Double-Edged Sword, that is because it is a Balance, and a balance is always finding the right spot; it's like the yin-yan sign...when you think it's white it'S actually black or more so (deceiving), it's grey), if it had been that easy like 1+1 = 2...aging would have been solved/cured long ago. In aging, 1+1 = 11...that's how deceiptful/deceiving. I don't think I can remembe rthe number of times I changed my outlook/point of view of aging....because I was wrong and I learned 'some New True-True... Truth'...
I just started my second three months on Rejuvant (Ca alpha ketoglutarate) and was pleased to see more detail on the Trume clock (13 DNA methylation sites) that was done on my saliva sample three months back. I was surprised to see a bio age of about 65 when my chrono. age was over 75. I wish I could report some miraculous improvement in the last three months but even if I had experienced one I could not have attributed it too the Rejuvant alone since I make small adjustments almost daily. I was surprised since I thought the first test would be closer to my chronological age and the second test lower. If my second test is eight years younger, my biological age will be 57, which is getting close to my sons age and two bad knees and more than 10% grey hair does not make me feel like mid 50s but my clinical numbers are pretty good (in spite of over 40 years of AFib) so maybe I am relatively healthy on the inside?
I welcome results like this. if there is anything we can use today the all the better. people don't realise that once actual therapies come to market they will only be available for specific conditions, when it come to off label use you would haveto find a doctor willing to do that which is near impossible
I'm a little concerned that this is a therapy for renal failure to lower phosphorous and raise calcium.....I run a high normal calcium and have on occasion had palpitations and atrial ectopy, so I'm hesitant to take something that may raise my calcium more. Maybe I'll try NAD. Any thoughts? I'm 67, normal bone density, have been weight training since my 20's, in great shape...work out an hour every day.
The comment by Barbara about the article's "cynic" line sums it up. A prune after years of taking this miracle pill still looks like a prune.
Fact: The Rejuvant site of marketing hype is selling a form of calcium for $160/bottle/month (or slightly cheaper, if you are a sucker for "auto-ship"), complete with auto-opt-in, forced-arbitration TOS.
Question: If you were an incorruptible doctor with decades dedicated to research, would you milk the desperate?
Doctors and institutions with solid reputations stay clear of the hype and rapacious pricing of get-rich-quick quacks and moral-fiber-free doctors.
it has obvious advantages over AAKG (Arginine-AlphaKetoGlutarate) for long term usage, and more AKG per gram when combined with calcium instead of arginine... But the price... almost the same as TA-65... AAKG is 10-20 times cheaper. I'll wait for cheaper alternative.
What is CR?
@curious
A few common abbreviations here:
CR : calorie restriction. (https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2002/11/calorie-restriction-explained/)
ScC : senecent cells, not to be confused with stem cells ( SC)
.
Fisetin (F).
Quercetin and dasatinib ("das") combination : Q+D
.
Reason has written excellent articles which can be found in the FAQ section.
Has anyone seen epigenetic clock data for non-supplement interventions, such as Time Restricted Eating, periodic fasting, exercise, dietary controls (food quality)? Some of these interventions raise levels of endogenous AKG, NAD+, and alter many things in a good way (lower insulin, TG, IGF-1), so I would expect the clock to roll back a bit.
Hi Everyone, I'm building up my anti aging protocols looking into CaAKG, the rest is on order; dasatinb, fisetin, quercitin, searching for rapamycin sources (India in 1mg pills vs china powder then have to titrate) etc.
Only a brief mention above of AAKG vs CaAKG of CaAKG being higher density of AKG vs Arginine AAKG of lower concentration of AKG / gm vs CaAKG but 20x cheaper.
Has anyone gone the AAKG route? I can't swallow pills of any size so everything goes through a blender with water so Rejuventates mentioned time release would probably be thwarted and wasted by me anyway. And a larger volume is something I could deal with re AAKG but efficacy is the question of AAKG vs CaAKG? Generic CaAKG off amazon is $50/100g/67 serviings for round numbers 75 cents / day but no time release. Given the costs of; Dasatinib, spermadine , Fisetin (cheap) and adding rapamycin not sure going cheaper AAKG has value vs 75 cents for generic CaAKG??
Another forum is: https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/g9h8993 many forums on that site too.
taking from Rejuvant and TREC AAKG labels, AKG contents are:
AAKG : ~351 mg/1000 mg
CaAKG: ~810 mg/1000 mg
~2,30 CaAKG/AAKG
@Curt Smith. I take all the things you list. The godfather of Rapamycin wrote me a script for Rapa, Metformin, Dasatinb and an angiotensin inhibitor. It's basically the Koschei formula. You can Google Mikail Blagosklonny and look up Dr Alan Green to see the details. My health has been much better on this combination of drugs/supplements. Dr Green will write you a years worth of scripts for only $300. The first year you will need to see him in person in NY. That was the biggest part of my expense but going forward I will see him through telemedicine. My insurance covers the cost of my medicine and I only pay $10/month for the Rapamycin. I only paid $200 for a years worth of senolytic doses of Dasatinb which Dr Green gets from a compounding pharmacy. That script alone saved me thousands.
I tried the India route and spend hundreds of dollars and got nothing in return. The first shipment never delivered and the second one was laced with a benzodiazepine. Not good.
I just purchased the Generic CaAKG off amazon for $50. Before that I took the AAKG. Seems like the CaAKG is much better.
Good Luck!
Are there any thoughts on using Metformin and CaAKG ?
I was wondering because CaAKG ist raising AKG and Metformin is lowering it.
SilverSeeker wrote:
"(CaAKG) has obvious advantages over AAKG (Arginine-AlphaKetoGlutarate) for long term usage"
Just what are those obvious advantages? AIUI arginine has its own advantages in that it delivers a blast of NO to relax the blood vessels, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Are there long-term disadvantages of taking arginine?
@StuartM there are some cons:
1. AKG in CaAKG is about 80% of the supplement, in AAKG it's about 34%
2. NOx are either anti-inflammatory or pro-inflammatory, AAKG creates all of them, overdosing is not that safe as not so infrequent bodybuilders' admissions to emergency rooms suggest; also long term continuous usage is dangerous to blood vessels and the heart. I pair it with agmatine to lower this danger, which makes it not that much cheaper than CaAKG.
3. Last but not least I tried AAKG, CaAKG, GAKG, OAKG (OKG), the effect on skin rebuild was the fastest when I combined CaAKG + OKG (~1,5-2 times faster than CaAKG, CaAKG was faster vs AAKG about 3 times).
Just saw a video with Tom Weldon
Rejuvant cAKG product, Ponce deLeon.
He said berberine and cAKG canceled each other out. Then later in video, he said not to take any supplements with cAKG. he did not mention when I can take other supplements.
I am curious about people's real-life experiences with AKG, and noticed Dennis Fink mentioned trying it last summer (he commented on 7/12/2020). A search of his name led me to an obit (with a Dennis Fink passing away four days after the comment date, on 7/16/2020, at age 76). Not sure if this is the same person... but if so, my sympathies to the family.
However, a Dennis commented above on July 17, 2021; perhaps this is Dennis Fink, and the obit was for someone else?
Dear @SilverSeeker,
Two questions:
1) How did you test skin rebuild? Are you doing experiments in the lab? It would be great if you can point us to some of your reports!
2) I wonder if you tried pure "AKG"? (Not listed in your comment). I have read a some articles and it seems that OAKG leads in benefits related to recovery from injury and muscle maintenance (better than pure "AKG", and CaAKG did not seem to be considered for testing. As you know, only CaAKG is listed for the longevity paper, but I'm wondering about pure "AKG" effects for that and "OAKG". Your comment makes me wonder about the combination of "OAKG with pure AKG". But I do not know. I hope you can help me to clarify these doubts.
@Alexis Espinosa wrinkle width and depth reduction, visually visible skin thinning and change of colour on larger areas retreating, scars after surgery getting thinner and less cratered and more naturally coloured, or just simply looking at the mirror... it's all visible to the naked eye. Of official papers maybe Buck institute will publish something more soon. I haven't tried their Rejuvant, it's too much additional calcium in it for me that I can't take, for a cost I can't afford. But cheaper alternatives for me are good enough. When I use term AKG I mean derivatives of it, I haven't found available it as an pure acid. OKG has it's drawbacks (similar to AAKG although not that strong) that make it hard to impossible for safe long term continuous use (at least for a male... :P), just intermittent. CaAKG also has it drawbacks - additional load of Calcium - but when you need to supplement calcium, your usual source of calcium can be exchanged for calcium contained in CaAKG. At 50 just 1,5-2 grams of CaAKG per day spread into 3-5 doses are still well tolerated.
@Alexis Moisture loss is easily prevented with phytoceramides. Yet, to have a proper 100% skin rebuild elastin also should be replenished. This I haven't found a way to do. After that we will see how glucosepane is involved in the loss of elasticity and young look of skin.
I'm new to AAKG and seeing a lot of it and variants -- L-ornithine KG, L-arginine pyroglutarate on the internet for sale. It seems there are several pathways to impinge on mitochondria complexes, of which there are a few stages. I'm definitely interesting in this science, but I am not at the point where I think I will need AAKG, rather, I'm curious about people's own experiences. Of course, other people's experiences won't be same as me as they are not taking the same supplements and (epi)genetically identical, nevertheless. I'm a fan of biotin, I wasn't aware how important biotin is to mitochondria until after I began megadosing it, followed up by more research and own changes, especially hair growth. I wonder if anyone is using AAKG or those above, alone or in combo w/ key substances, topically on skin and hair?
Definitely do not take AAKG because the arginine gives you a massive vascular dilation boost that in the long term is deleterious but in the short term makes you feel like superman.
The Ca-AKG gives you the opposite of a boost - at least mentally - and that's what you want. autophagy etc. I feel like NOT working out (I am 73) after Ca-AKG and my maximum strength is a bit lower - no energy feeling. BUT BUT BUT I noticed I can do MORE press ups even though I feel low. That "low" feeling, IMO, is a ketogenic feeling, and actually the body is doing better.
I am off-and-on carnivore so I know all about ketogenesis.
One thing I am worried about - could the Ca-AKG I have (from two sources) have ISOMER issues?
Noticed maybe diarrhoea if I take a lot of one of them - that to me, indicates the body rejecting ENANTIOMER version of Ca-AKG. Or maybe I'm wrong here - hopes so.
I looked up the video with Tom Weldon after I read the post from Dennis, a little more than a year ago, regarding the negative effects of berberine and AKG and indeed Tom Weldon did say berberine cancelled out the benefits of AKG. This makes sense because berberine is like metformin in being an mTOR inhibitor, but curiously AKG actually promotes mTOR, yet has benefits for extending healthspan, not much for lifespan. Perhaps the two do not work in tandem, and they should be alternately cycled, along with high protein on days of taking AKG (to enhance mTOR effects), and then berberine on low protein days. I'm also wonderinh what other supplemenst might interfere with AKG. Weldon makes it sound liek its all of nothing and not to take any other supplements, i.e., resveratrol and other antiaging factors, but who would follow that? A lot of people are taking the senolytic fisetin and could that interfere? Here's what Dennis had said:
"Just saw a video with Tom Weldon Rejuvant cAKG product, Ponce deLeon. He said berberine and cAKG canceled each other out. Then later in video, he said not to take any supplements with cAKG. he did not mention when I can take other supplements" -.from the Post by: Dennis July 17th, 2021
Could someone please offer any references regarding the hypotheses related to taking berberine and CaAKG (or AKG) together? Thanks!